Thursday, August 30, 2012

真相大白

2011-7-28 03:23



不过,我再查考奥古斯丁的拉丁文文稿(《论三位一体》),
我想,我必须做个更正。
罗1:3 的 factus est 应该是“被造”的意思,而不是“成为”。

“Proinde in forma dei fecit (made 造) hominem; in forma serui factus (being-made 被造) est (was) homo. ”
     ~ AUGUSTINI, DE TRINITATE, LIBER I, [VII 14]
“Quis dubitet eum omnia 'quae creata (being-created 创造) sunt' dicere, sicut Iohannes: Omnia per ipsum facta (being-made 造) sunt?”
     ~ AUGUSTINI, DE TRINITATE, LIBER I, [VI 12]

当然还是有“成为”意思的例子,但是从惯用法来看,罗1:3的翻译还是以“被造”为首选。
“Humiliauit se factus (became 成为) obediens (being-obeying 顺服) usque ad mortem, mortem autem crucis;”
     ~ AUGUSTINI, DE TRINITATE, LIBER I, [XIII 29]

参考网站:
http://www.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/words.exe?factus

尽管如此,还是不会改变我的立场,因为罗1:3的翻译还是应该以希腊文为主。




oldfish: Big,这样吧,来个简单的了断:

你自己考察的结论是:奥古斯丁说 “他(耶稣基督)却是被造的” 。对照《论信望爱》的英文翻译(见 附一)和拉丁文原文(见 附 ...

是的,拉丁文译本真的翻译成 “被造” ,于是回过头来对照英文圣经译本,发现 只有钦定本(KJV)翻译成 “made 被造” 
回到希腊文新约手抄本,倒
 都是 “genomenou 成为”  。

其实,希腊文ginomai(成为,有(没有主词,受词为假主词))常常被翻译成拉丁文的 factus(被造(完成式-被动态-分词))。


参考:http://www.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/words.exe?factus 
罗1:3 拉丁文译本的 factus 是分词-完成式-被动态,factus 的字根(或字源)有两个可能:facio(造)或 fio(发生),
而 fio 有假语态的特性,也就是被动态的 fio(也就是 factus )其实是主动的意思,
因此,拉丁文译本忠实于希腊文经文。

所以,奥古斯丁没有【错】,是英文翻译错了,导致奥氏成为千古罪人。

注:《假语态》。Deponent verb 异相动词,是一种假语态的动词。拉丁文和希腊文的语态有:主动、被动、中动(又叫关身 reflexive; 复数时,互相 reciprocal )。 异相动词通常没有主动字形,以中动字形来表示主动意思,所以是假中动语态 。fio 是半-异相动词,以被动语态来表示主动意思,是假被动语态;但是只有在完成式时态时,才有假语态的性质,所以叫半异相动词 semi deponent verb,是有条件的假语态动词。希腊文里,一些异相动词在某些时态里有中动字形和被动字形,在某些时态里中动字形可以表示主动或被动,要看前后文来决定。




或者,中文翻译错了,英文的 to be made(被造)本身就有 to become(成为)的意思。


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参考资料


(Google Dictionary)

make   /meɪk/ DJ   /mek/ KK
verb
Irregular: made;   made   /meɪd/ DJ   /med/ KK

1. to create or prepare something by combining materials or putting parts together 制造;做;组装 ~ sth (from/(out) of sth) ~ sth into sth ~ sth (for sb) ~ sb sth
See also: do
4. to cause something to appear as a result of breaking, tearing, hitting or removing material 造成(破坏、破损等) VN
5. to cause something to exist, happen or be done 使出现;引发;使产生 VN
6. to cause somebody/something to be or become something 使变得;使成为 VN-ADJ
8. to cause somebody/something to be or become something 造就;使构成 ~ sth of sb/sth ~ sth sth
9. to decide, guess, etc. something 做,作出(决定、估计等) VN ~ a decision, guess, comment, etc.
10. to force somebody to do something 迫使;强迫
11. to represent somebody/something as being or doing something 表现;表示;描绘
12. to elect or choose somebody as something 选举;挑选;任命 VN-N
13. to become or develop into something; to be suitable for something 成为;适合 linking verb V-N
18. to manage to reach or go to a place or position (尽力)赶往,到达,达到 VN no passive
19. to cause something to be a success 使成功;使圆满 VN



(Cambridge Dictionaryies Online)




make verb \ˈmāk\
made mak·ing

Definition of MAKE

transitive verb

2
a : to cause to happen to or be experienced by someone
b : to cause to exist, occur, or appear : create
c : to favor the growth or occurrence of
d : to fit, intend, or destine by or as if by creating

9
a : to cause to be or become
b : appoint

15
: to cause to act in a certain way : compel

16
: to cause or assure the success or prosperity of



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http://www.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/words.exe?factus

fact.us              VPAR   3 1 NOM S M PERF PASSIVE PPL
facio, facere, feci, factus  V (3rd) TRANS   [XXXAO]  
make/build/construct/create/cause/do; have built/made; fashion; work (metal);
act/take action/be active; (bowels); act/work (things), function, be effective;
produce; produce by growth; bring forth (young); create, bring into existence;
compose/write; classify; provide; do/perform; commit crime; suppose/imagine;

fact.us              VPAR   3 3 NOM S M PERF PASSIVE PPL
fio, feri, factus sum  V SEMIDEP   [XXXAO]  
happen, come about; result (from); take place, be held, occur, arise (event);
be made/created/instituted/elected/appointed/given; be prepared/done; develop;
be made/become; (facio PASS); [fiat => so be it, very well; it is being done];

fact.us              V-PAR   3 1 NOM S M PERF PASSIVE PPLfactus        动词-分词   第3类  第1种变化 主词 单数 阳性 完成式 被动态 分词 

facio, facere, feci, factus  V/动词 (3rd) TRANS/及物动词-接受词   [XXXAO]  

make 做/build 造/construct/create 创造/cause/do; have built/made; fashion; work (metal);
act 行/take action/be active; (bowels); act/work (things), function, be effective;
produce; produce by growth; bring forth (young); create, bring into existence;
compose 编/write 写; classify; provide 供应; do 做/perform; commit crime; suppose/imagine;

fact.us              V-PAR   3 3 NOM S M PERF PASSIVE PPL
factus        动词-分词   第3类  第3种变化 主词 单数 阳性 完成式 被动态 分词 
fio, feri, factus sum  V SEMI-DEP/半-假被动态(只有完成式的被动态实为主动意)   [XXXAO]  

happen 发生, come about; result (from); take place, be held, occur, arise (event);
be made 被造/created/instituted/elected 被选/appointed 被指定/given; be prepared/done; develop;
be made/become; (facio PASS); [fiat => so be it, very well; it is being done];




========================



ardmore 2011-7-28 10:35
真相大白, Big 兄功力深厚,果然厉害。 
flicker 彩虹炫 | 编辑 删除Big 2011-11-11 11:13
* Latin has 6 tenses.

Present - amo I love, I do love, I am loving
Imperfect - amabam I loved, I did love, I was loving, I used to love
Future - * amabo I shall love, I am going to love, I am about to love
Perfect - amavi I loved, I have loved
Pluperfect - amaveram I had loved
Future Perfect - * amavero I shall have loved
*The “shall” is a bit old-fashioned -- in the U.S., at least. Here we usually replace “shall” with “will”.

* Latin 3 Moods

indicative - He sleeps. 
imperative - Go to sleep!
subjunctive - something might happen, or could happen

* Latin has only two voices: active and passive.

active -  I love. 
passive -  I am loved.
flicker 彩虹炫 | 编辑 删除Big 2011-11-11 11:20
* Latin Deponent verbs are active in meaning and passive in form. 
- the perfect passive participle plus the first person of the verb for "to be."; 
-- In a non-deponent verb, this form would give you the “perfect passive,” 
-- but here the form gives you the perfect active. 
-- In a non-deponent verb, the “to be” would not be added. 

* Latin Semi-deponent verbs are similar to deponent verbs 
- in that they only have three principal parts and they are active in meaning, but passive in form, but only in the “perfect” tenses. 
- In the present tense, for instance, all is normal, 
- In the dictionary, you will see 3 forms:
     the present active indicative first person singular
     the present active infinitive, and
     the perfect passive indicative (also first person singular, as noted by the sum “to be”).

* The dictionary entry for a Latin verb has four "principle parts". 
- the first person singular present active indicative, 
- the infinitive, 
- the first person singular perfect active indicative, 
- the supine (or in some texts, the perfect passive participle).

* Deponent verbs have only three principal parts:
* Likewise, semi-deponent verbs have only three:

* In Latin there are three participles you need to know at this time: the present active, the perfect passive and the future active:
- Present Active Infinitive         
- Present Active Participle         
- Perfect Passive Participle         
- Future Active Participle

* Since these verbs are passive in looks but active in meaning, then their perfect passive participle must be translated as a perfect active participle, and we do have class of perfect "active" participles by default.
flicker 彩虹炫 | 编辑 删除Big 2011-11-11 11:58
* Latin Periphrastic (participle + to-be) - There are two periphrastic conjugations. One is active, and the other is passive.

- Passive Periphrastic - A passive periphrastic construction merely points to existence of a need or obligation.  When used with a form of sum (to be), the gerundive — which is passive — denotes necessity or obligation.

- future active participle + sum (to be) - intended, destined, future
- passive participle + sum - advisable, appropriate
- present participle + sum - predicate adjective; verb-ing+sum = verb

* early Latin
- the perfect participle of deponents occasionally has passive force. 
- a few verbs, not otherwise used in the passive, form a perfect passive participle having active or neuter meaning.
flicker 彩虹炫 | 编辑 删除Big 2011-11-11 23:26
* 神造靈

賽 57:16 恐怕我所造(made)的人(breath)與靈性(spirit)都必發昏。
亞 12:1 造(form)人裡面之靈(spirit)的耶和華說:

* 相關經文

來 1:7 神以風為使者 Who maketh (as) his angels spirits, 
詩 51:10 求你為我造(create)清潔的心(heart),使我裡面重新(renew)有正直(或譯:堅定)的靈(spirit)。
詩 104:30 你發出你的靈(spirit),牠們便受造(created);你使地面更換為新(renew)。
賽 42:5 賜(give)氣息(breath)給地上的眾人,又賜靈性(spirit)給行在其上之人的 神耶和華,
摩 4:13 那創(form)山、造(create)風(spirit)、將心意指示人
flicker 彩虹炫 | 编辑 删除Big 2011-11-11 23:55
* 神造人

創        1:26        「我們要照著我們的形像、按著我們的樣式造(make)人,
創        1:27        神就照著自己的形像造(create)人,乃是照著他的形像造(create)男造(create)女。
創        2:7        耶和華神用地上的塵土造(form)人,將生氣吹在他鼻孔裡,他就成了有靈的活人,名叫亞當。
創        2:18        我要為他造(make)一個配偶幫助他。」
創        2:22        耶和華神就用那人身上所取的肋骨造成(build)一個女人,

伯 10:8 你的手創造我,造就我的四肢百體
伯 10:9 製造我如摶泥一般
伯 31:15 造我在腹中的,不也是造他嗎?
伯 32:22 造我的主必快快除滅我。
伯 33:4 神的靈造我;全能者的氣使我得生。
伯 33:6 我...也是用土造成。
伯 35:10 造我的神在哪裡?
伯 36:3 將公義歸給造我的主。
伯 40:15 我造你也造牠

詩 95:6 在造我們的耶和華面前跪下。
詩 100:3 我們是他造的,
詩 103:22 你們一切被他造的,
詩 119:73 你的手製造我,建立我;
詩 139:13 我的肺腑是你所造的;我在母腹中,你已覆庇我。
詩 139:14 因我受造,
詩 139:15 我在暗中受造,... 我的形體並不向你隱藏。
詩 139:16 我未成形的體質,(或譯:我被造的肢體尚未有其一)

賽        43:1        雅各啊,創造你的耶和華,以色列啊,造成你的那位,
賽        43:7        就是凡稱為我名下的人,是我為自己的榮耀創造的,是我所做成,所造作的。
賽        43:15        是創造以色列的,
賽        43:21        這百姓是我為自己所造的,
賽        44:2        造作你,又從你出胎造就你,
賽        44:21        我造就你必不忘記你。
賽        44:24        從你出胎,造就你的救贖主

賽        45:12        我造地,又造人在地上。
耶        1:5        我未將你造在腹中,我已曉得你;
flicker 彩虹炫 | 编辑 删除Big 2011-11-12 02:57
* There are four participial forms.
- present participle (ppl.)
- fut. passive ppl. (the gerundive)
- perfect ppl. 
- fut. active ppl.

* The present participle is declined like a third-declension adjective (with genitive singular in -is), except that it may sometimes take an -e instead of an -î in the ablative singular. See the page on third-declension patterns.
- The present participle can sometimes take -e rather than -î: 
-- Deo volente. = With God willing [something]. = If God wills [something].
flicker 彩虹炫 | 编辑 删除Big 2011-11-12 02:58
* The Gerundive

One more class of words completes our list in the participial class:

This one refers not to time, as the others do, but to "oughtness", the kind of thing which one is bound to do, one should do, one has to do. In English we put such structures into the supplementary verb phrase: "You really SHOULD do this....', in Latin we have a preference for doing it the other way around with a specialized participial/adjectival ending:

"This is a thing which (which) ought to be done...", is in Latin:
    hoc est gerundum.
Since gero is Class III like duco, we take the root ger- and add the longish endings -undus (masc.) -unda Fem.) and -undum (neut) . Thus Gerundive is autogenetically named as an example based on the very word from which this example comes!

So from amare Class I, we get amandum "something which is to be loved", amandus "a (masc.) to be loved;', and amanda, which is identical to the girl's name, the fond thought of a well-wishing parent. The forms are simple:

              I              II             III            IV
Masculine    amandus        monendus       ducendus       audiendus 
Feminine     amanda         monenda        ducenda        audienda 
Neuter       amandum        monendum       ducendum       audiendum

The rest of the forms are perfectly regular Class l adjectives, I hardly need to list them here, since you can find them In the adjectival category.

Several remarks are due at this point.

1) When I say "to be loved, or to be done " or something or this sort, I am only implying "oughtness", and you must not confuse this with the English translation of the Latin passive present infinitive amari "to be loved", which has an entirely different meaning. "He wants to be loved" is different in idea from "he ought to be loved, he MUST be loved.... (or else)". The English phrases overlap, the Latin ones are worlds apart in meaning and even more significantly, in use. Watch this detail.

2) When you say in Latin "this ought to be done by you", you might think that the "by you" will be in the ablative with preposition a- or ab-, its variant, since a/ab- normally marks agency. That is generally true, but in this one case, with our Gerundive form in -undus, the doer is in the dative (to-for), which always surprises the person learning to read Latin. Hoc gerundum est tibi (dative) means "this must be done by you", and we call this formally the dative of agent, rare because it is used only here.

A better way of thinking of this Dative is to see it as "The Dative of the Person Concerned", a bad mouthful of verbiage but quite to the point, since it is the person who is concerned with the action who gets involved as agent for getting it done. Point to remember: With Gerundive use Dative for the ageny (actually the person involved, concerned).

When you look up this class in the standard grammars, you will find it under the English title "gerundive". It is certainly eccentric to name a Class of words by an example taken from a single sample of its use, but that is the way it is, and you might as well get used to the term for later use. But always distinguish between this Gerundive and the Gerund which is entirely different.



* The Gerund

Now if the "gerundive" is a specialized verbal adjective implying "oughtness", the "gerund" will be a verbal noun, actually the neuter singular form of this class used as a noun. Occasionally you will find this neuter used as a noun, but very occasionally, as in Horace's poetical phrase "why will you persist in destroying this sweet young boy "amando?", that is by loving him. The gerund becomes a noun, in fact is an adjective in the neuter serving as an abstract noun, and amandum is not far different from the common noun amor, amoris "love". The only problem is that when you see this rarish form, you may think it is the more common gerundive, and since there is little distinction of form, you can be fooled. Keep it in the back of your mind.



* The Supines

A few more very rare noun/verb forms exist, and I will dedicate just one sentence to each:

1) The Supine looks like a PPP, perfect passive participle, in the neuter singular, but it is an obsolete infinitive type historically, and used rarely.

2) Translating as an English infinitive will do the trick once you are secure in your recognition of existence of the Supine in-u-.
flicker 彩虹炫 | 编辑 删除Big 2011-11-14 08:50
* 拉丁文 - 动词

- 语态:直述、命令、假设。
-- 分词、不定词、目的分词(supine)。
- Gerundives are verbal adjectives;  also known as future passive participles.

- 语气:主动、被动。
-- 异态动词:被动型-主动意。
-- 半异态动词:完成被动结构-主动意。
-- 一些中性动词(不及物动词),主动意-被动意。
-- 完成类时态的被动型为:被动分词 + sum(“是”-动词)

- 时态:现在、过去进行、完成(过去-现在完成)、过去完成、未来完成。
flicker 彩虹炫 | 编辑 删除Big 2012-1-20 03:49
http://www.brighthub.com/education/languages/articles/24799.aspx

The Latin Passive Voice

The Latin Passive Voice functions similarly to English. However, since Latin is an inflected language, the verb ending changes to indicate when the action takes place. For example:

Liber Caesari a regina donatur.

A book is given to Caesar by the queen.

Notice that the subject of the sentence (book) is having something done to it (is given) by someone (queen). “Caesar” is used in the sentence to indicate to whom the book was given. As a side note, the phrase “a regina” is the ablative of agent, a construction often used with the passive voice. When the doer of the action of a passive voice sentence is an object, the ablative of means or instrument is used instead.

Like English, Latin Passive Voice verbs can take place in any of the available six tenses. For example:

Liber Caesari a regina donabatur. (Imperfect Tense)

A book was being given to Caesar by the queen.

Liber Caesari a regina donabitur. (Future Tense)

A book will be given to Caesar by the queen.

and so on.

One area that gives Latin students trouble in forming Passive Voice verbs is found in the formation of the Perfect Tense system. Here, auxiliary verbs are used to indicate the person and number of the verb. For example:

Liber Caesari a regina donatus est. (Perfect Tense)

The book was given to Caesar by the queen.

Liber Caesari a regina donatus erat. (Pluperfect Tense)

The book had been given to Caesar by the queen.

Liber Caesari a regina donatus erit. (Future Perfect Tense)

The book will have been given to Caesar by the queen.

Notice in the first sentence that the verb phrase “donatus est” is used to indicate the English verb phrase “was given.” For the first time, Latin students are introduced to the concept of using multiple words to form a verb. Also, this is one of the few times when Latin and English share a common construction. Remember, however, that this only occurs in the passive voice and only for the perfect tense system.





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